QUESTION: I think I talked with you last back in 2005.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, right. Good.
QUESTION: You've been busy.
SECRETARY RICE: It's been a long time. (Laughter.) I liked talking to you, yeah.
QUESTION: How was your trip to the Middle East?
SECRETARY RICE: It was a good trip to the Middle East. This is going to be one of several, I think, that will give me an opportunity to lay some groundwork for the President's -- carry out the President's initiatives that he announced on July 16th. A lot of consultation to do to stimulate and press forward on the bilateral track between the Palestinians and the Israelis, but also to begin to develop the conference, the meeting that will take place some time in the fall so that the right participation is there. So that's what I did during the trip.
The earlier part of the trip was with Secretary Gates. We went and talked to longtime regional allies about security challenges that they face, and helping them to deal with those security challenges; and sending a strong message that the President would make his decisions about Iraq with the context -- within the context of regional security, because an Iraq that is stable is going to be a real benefit for regional security. An unstable Iraq is going to make it very difficult for the interests of our friends but also for the interests of the United States.
QUESTION: Well, how important was the $80 million assistance package?
SECRETARY RICE: Very important to give this assistance to the Palestinians. Everybody knows that the long pole in the tent, so to speak, in the foundation/creation of the Palestinian state is to finally have security forces in the Palestinian territories that are able to be a part of the solution, not part of the problem. And this is a package to help develop and professionalize the security forces of the Palestinian Authority.
It's the first time we've directly contributed to security. And it's going to be done on the basis of the kind of international effort that General Keith Dayton is leading.
QUESTION: How would you assess our chances of mediating a solution between the Palestinians and Israelis?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, the first things you have to say is that it's been 40 years and they still haven't been able to do it. So it's obviously a very, very difficult problem, or somebody would've solved it. But over the last six years of the Administration, some things have gone well in that regard; set up better conditions. Other things have made it more difficult.
I don't think there is any doubt that you now have in the Palestinian leadership -- in people like Abu Mazen and Salaam Fayyad, the Prime Minister and the ministers that I met with; his ministers who are terrific -- you have a kind of democratic and more tolerant, more -- a group that really wants the Palestinian state, when it is formed, to be moderate and tolerant. You have those people now in office, and you haven't had that in the Palestinian territories.
The second point is that you have, I think, in Israel a real desire to try to resolve this problem. And that is helped by the fact that Prime Minister Sharon several years ago -- a couple years ago, well, actually, 2003 -- in a major speech to this conference, Herzliya conference, really did put the center of Israeli public opinion behind dividing the land and creating a Palestinian state.
And finally, I think you have more support from the regional actors to resolve this issue because increasingly, people do see that this is one element in the larger contest between extremism and moderation in the Middle East.
So those are all positive factors. It's a difficult time because you have Hamas in control of Gaza. You have more Iranian influence than I think you've had in the region. But those are not reasons to bail, but press ahead on what I think is just really essential to get this resolved.
QUESTION: So you are hopeful?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think there are reasons for some belief that there is an opportunity there. But it's not going to be easy and we're a long way --
QUESTION: Long way, right.
SECRETARY RICE: -- from getting a solution.
QUESTION: Libya. You recently said that you're going to travel to Libya.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, I hope to go to Libya, yes.
QUESTION: What does that say about the Administration and about you wanting to, I guess, mend fences and --
SECRETARY RICE: Well, it says that the United States doesn't have permanent enemies. I don't -- I could think -- not think of a state that we had worse relations with, really, than Libya. But Libyan policy changed. Libyan behavior changed. Libya decided to voluntarily give up its weapons of mass destruction, of programs, in a way that was verifiable. They have taken actions to demonstrate that they don't intend to be a terrorist threat.
There are still a lot of problems. I think there's no doubt that this isn't an open political system. There are still many, many problems. But, you know -- we saw the effects of that in this most recent problem with the Bulgarian nurses -- but when you look at where Libya was at the beginning of this Administration, you look at where Libya is now -- I think there's reason to really try and increase the engagement with Libya. We have appointed an ambassador to Libya.
So what it says to me is that when people say, well, you don't talk to your enemies, well, you know, we talk to our adversaries when there's something to talk about and when you can expect changes in behavior. And here, with Libya, who had a massive change in behavior, it's -- and it's paid off for Libya. Libya now has the prospect of western investment, out from under sanctions; I mean, a whole variety of matters.
QUESTION: Historic visit when you --
SECRETARY RICE: It will be, and I'm looking to it, I really am.
QUESTION: Let's talk about Iraq. There have been signs of progress over the recent weeks and months. How would you assess the situation there now?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, it's still tough, and it's not surprisingly tough because this is a country that's trying to do something that's never been done in this region: first of all, with democracy; secondly, a democracy with different ethnic and religious groups having to come together. I mean, it's not a homogenous society, and with determined enemies: al-Qaida, the sectarian violence, sectarian interests.
But all of that said, I think the President's decision in January to augment American forces in order to try to give the Iraqis some breathing space is paying some dividends. There is -- I think there's no doubt that the kind of sectarian violence that we saw after the bombing of the Golden Mosque -- where literally these death squads would go into communities, round up the men, and shoot them, send the women into exile -- that is much diminished. It's also clear that the Iraqi security forces are fighting a lot better with Americans helping them. Al-Qaida, I think, is suffering reverses, particularly in places like Anbar, which used to be the epicenter -- it was the heartland of al-Qaida. And now you have the local people, the sheikhs and others taking back their streets from al-Qaida, and doing it in cooperation with us.
Now, there are still -- there's still an awful lot of work to do. I think nobody is really very satisfied with the pace of political progress at the national level. They need to make real efforts to get some greater elements of reconciliation in place. But even there, the leadership is working together. I think they're trying to -- the way to think about Iraq is, on the one hand, you've got this government which is, I think, is hamstrung or it's made more difficult by what is really underlying power relationships between various parties. And in that sense, it's just -- it's a weak coalition government. This is something that we understand from politics.
But the -- if you want to call them, the power brokers, of these parties are now meeting together with the Prime Minister and the presidency council plus the prime minister, to see if they can't find structures to break some of these deadlocks. They're trying to do this by consensus, you know. They don't want to pass an oil law 51-49 because that would basically leave certain groups out. And I think that's very important. So what they're doing is hard. They need to make more progress. We are constantly telling them about the urgency of doing so.
But there are some good things going on in the country. I just got a report today on what we call budget execution; that is, the government actually spending money in the provinces. And that's well ahead of where they were at the end of all last year.
QUESTION: Oh, really?
SECRETARY RICE: So money is getting out to the provinces. People are taking back their streets from al-Qaida. Sectarian violence is down. What we've not been able to stop is two things that are very troubling. One is that the terrorists can still get off the -- you know, the big bombing against innocent civilians; what the Iraqis have said is a kind of cowardice because if you can't win militarily, you go after innocents civilians. The other thing is that there's -- you know, the -- as I said, the national reconciliation needs to move more quickly. I know for Americans how hard this is. It's hard for us to watch the continuing sacrifice of young Americans; Americans who are volunteers, who are there just to try and help the people emerge for democracy.
But I do think there are some hopeful signs. There are a lot of very difficult challenges ahead, but if you just think about what an Iraq that's moving in the right direction will mean for the Middle East, for American interests, for defeating the terrorists and for ultimately making us more secure, that's what we have to stay focused on.
QUESTION: And that's what you stay focused on.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah.
QUESTION: Is there one thing that needs to happen for all other pieces to fall into place, do you think?
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, very good question. Well, I would name two. I think there needs to be more of this movement of people -- Iraqi populations just getting sick of the terrorists -- taking back the streets. They're the ones who are increasing several-fold the number of tips that our people are getting that they can go and say, oh, well, that's where that network is operating, because they're going to be better at knowing those are foreigners, not Iraqis. So the sense that the Iraqi population is really engaged in this, that you're getting in places like Anbar and Diyala and in some neighborhoods of Baghdad now, that trend needs to increase.
And then secondly, yes, the leadership needs to find a way to build these pillars of reconciliation. And, you know, I've been using an example that will be well understood by those of us who are African American. You know, when we say they need to do national reconciliation or reconciliation, I mean de jure reconciliation, all right. They need laws that say, here's how Iraqis are going to relate to one another. The kind of normative reconciliation where they all are -- really see themselves, that'll take time.
The example I've used is -- you know, when I was growing up in Birmingham, two days before the Public Accommodations Act passed, race mixing was illegal. Two days after, race mixing was legal. Two days before, a lot of people didn't like it. Two days after, a lot of people didn't like it.
QUESTION: Didn't change the attitudes.
SECRETARY RICE: But what changed was, people knew; people in the middle, not the Ku Klux Klan, but people in the middle knew that now they had no choice but to accept that my family could walk into a restaurant, and over time -- now when I go back to Birmingham, now the kind of normative relations between the races have shifted, have changed, and people have gotten accustomed to it.
That's what Iraqis need. But you start with changing the law. You start with changing the foundation so that people know how to relate to each other. And after that, it may take some time for the normative side to come into being. But I think they will eventually get there.
QUESTION: Well, that's a great analogy, yeah. Do you see Iraq being in the same spot or place that we were, say, back during then?
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, well, you know, it's not a perfect analogy, but I think when you look at any people who are different, or who see themselves as different, they need two things. They need a legal structure that protects the minority from the majority, because one of the good things about democracy is one-man vote -- one vote. One of the bad things about democracy, if you're not careful, is the tyranny of the majority.
QUESTION: Right, right.
SECRETARY RICE: So you need structures and you need an attitude and you need laws that protect the minority. And that's the structures that they're trying to build in Iraq. That's why I said it's not good if they just passed laws 51-49 because some important groups are going to get left out in that (inaudible.)
Now, once you have that, you also need leaders who have an idea that is bigger than just their group. And that takes time. That's really hard, particularly in a country like Iraq where some groups were so disadvantaged, so oppressed, where, you know, the Shia and the Kurds were, you know, lined up and shot or gassed; chemical weapons were actually used to kill them.
So when you say, all right, the Shia and the Kurds are now talking about a way for people who might have been part of the Baath Party to come back into the normal life of Iraq, think of how hard that is; what a hard issue of reconciliation that is. So it's not that they are lazy. It's not that they don't want to reconcile. It's not that they don't want to build a unified Iraq. But you're talking about people who are overcoming some of the most horrific experiences that happened to their group, deciding they're going to put that behind them now and build a unified Iraq. And they're going to get there, but it's not easy, it's very hard.
QUESTION: Do they need someone like a king to kind of think of --
SECRETARY RICE: Leadership is a good thing. (Laughter.) Yeah, leadership is a good thing, yeah. You know, there are lots of examples of it. And a lot of kings --
QUESTION: A lot of history.
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, exactly. I think there are people there who want to see that. You know, we often -- we say, well, they need to do more. They do. But, you know, I look at the leader of the Sunni party. He's lost three siblings, two brothers and a sister, to the terrorists because the terrorists didn't want him involved in the government. So this is not a man without courage. This is a man who's put a lot on the line to build a unified Iraq. So those people are there.
From our point of view, it is a matter of recognizing that sustaining them or supporting them through this struggle helps us because the source of so much trouble for us has come from the Middle East, including the source of the terrorism that cost us on September 11th. And if we're not going to be just constantly in fear of terrorism, there's going to have to be a change in the Middle East. It's going to have to be a place that doesn't produce this kind of hatred. And so we're linked to Iraq's future.
Now, nobody expects that the United States is going to be doing the same thing with the same kinds of responsibilities for our troops into the future. It won't be that way. Things will change. They will take more responsibility. They're already taking more responsibility. But what we can't afford to do is to just leave because they will pay for it, but so will we.
QUESTION: We will too, right.
SECRETARY RICE: We will too.
QUESTION: Is it frustrating that more people don't see that vision?
SECRETARY RICE: No, I recognize that when Americans look at their screen everyday and see what they see, that it must seem, well, this isn't going in the right direction; why don't we just give up? But I think if you really ask people, do you want to have this come out in a more sustainable place, a place where American interests are really protected; they say, yes.
The question is at what cost. And I think we've got a strategy now and development now that suggests that -- and again, I do not want to underestimate the terrible sacrifice that we're seeing of Americans -- but we've got a strategy and we've got a way forward. And we will have even more of a way forward after September, when General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker report, that would give us a coherent, sustainable way forward in Iraq with different responsibilities for the United States, but with a prospect of an Iraq that is stable and a Middle East that is politically stable. And we just -- we have to let the nation come to that place.
QUESTION: Do you perceive the drawdown of troops coming any time?
SECRETARY RICE: It will come.
QUESTION: Okay.
SECRETARY RICE: It will come because our responsibilities are going to be different. But the President will make those decisions based on what he sees the commanders -- what the commanders tell him about what's needed. But, as you see daily, Iraqis are taking on more responsibility. There are more and more trained Iraqi forces. Those forces will be able to do more, and then we'll have to do less; or, will be able to do less.
QUESTION: How tough is it to -- when you talk to family members of soldiers in Iraq or those who've been killed in Iraq?
SECRETARY RICE: It's very difficult, it's very difficult. I go from -- out to Walter Reed or to Bethesda and talk to these families. But, you know, it's very interesting. More often than not, they're so clear-headed about why they've done what they've done. And you'll hear people say, you know, I'm proud to serve and I'd do it again. And they sustain me, not the other way around. And -- but it's hard because these are, either in the case of people who died, they won't ever be there for, you know, their families. In the case of people who are severely wounded and life is unalterably changed -- and nothing that I can say will change that. But I think it helps that people know that the country appreciates our soldiers and their sacrifices.
Now, I was out -- I went out when Tiger Woods had his tournament here because it was in honor of our troops, because his dad was a Green Beret. And I sat with some of the wounded warriors for a long period of time to watch Woods. We were sitting at the 16th green. Of course, it almost got us hit by Phil Mickelson's ball, but other than that -- (laughter) --
QUESTION: (Inaudible.)
SECRETARY RICE: Yeah. (Laughter.) I'd say that he hooked it really badly. But they were so committed and they -- it was really, really wonderful. No President or his advisors ever actually wants to go to war. I've never understood the -- there are a lot of reasons to be critical of what we've done and how we've done it. That we somehow wanted to go to war, is just not one of them.
QUESTION: Let's -- let me ask you this. Twenty years from now, what do you hope historians will say about the war in Iraq and your role?
SECRETARY RICE: I don't care what historians say about my role. I hope that they will say that what we've done and what the Iraqis have done marked the beginning of a democratic and therefore truly stable Middle East; marked the beginning, not the end.
You know, Korea; South Korea -- I talked to my counterpart from South Korea last night; we were talking about North Korea and the six-party talks among other things. And in 1950 when the Korean War broke out and America fought on the south of the country, and in '53, the war ended in what appeared to be a stalemate, nobody, I think, would have dreamed that you would have as vibrant a South Korea -- the largest economy in the world, great ally of the United States; and now a democratic ally. But, of course, even in the '80s, South Korea was an (inaudible). So it took time.
There's a kind of impatience about what people have to go through to, you know, to succeed. If anyone people should know that democracy takes time, we should know -- black Americans should know -- because that first Constitution didn't do us very well. (Laughter.)
QUESTION: It took a little time, right?
SECRETARY RICE: Took a little time. And I even -- I talked about the civil rights movement as our second founding because it really wasn't until '64 and '65 -- 1964 and 1965 -- that the rights written in 1789 were guaranteed to us.
QUESTION: Right, right.
SECRETARY RICE: Now, I think that that says that if you just throw up your hands and say, oh, well, this is never going to happen, then you're not going to have people like Reverend Shuttlesworth, who was a good friend of my family, or Rosa Parks, or Dr. Dorothy Height -- they were probably my heroines -- who are just going to say, okay, you know, we're just going to get in there and we're going to (inaudible). And eventually, you win those struggles because democratic institutions are the only ones that sustain human dignity; and human beings instinctively know that. But then to say, well, some other people just aren't ready for it, seems to be just wrong; morally wrong.
And the final point I would make is, you know, America has always been better when it has married power and principle. And we've sacrificed before so that people could emerge free. And it's the reason we're not fighting in Europe ever again. It's the reason that it's very hard to imagine fighting in Asia ever again, because we did sacrifice our fathers and our grandfathers and our great-grandfathers -- did sacrifice -- and we helped to build strong, democratic allies in those countries. And we're not going back there to fight. And if we do it in the Middle East -- in places like Afghanistan and Iraq -- we're not going to have to go back there to fight.
MR. MCCORMACK: If you could just ask one -- one more quick one.
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: Okay. I want to ask you about Africa.
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: I was with you and the President when you went to Africa.
SECRETARY RICE: Yes, yes.
QUESTION: And he promised billions of dollars in aid.
SECRETARY RICE: And they've gotten there.
QUESTION: And (inaudible).
SECRETARY RICE: Yes.
QUESTION: What does that say about this Administration?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, this President has had an interest in Africa from the very beginning. You know, I -- when I was National Security Advisor and Jendayi Frazer was Special Assistant, we never had any trouble getting African leaders into the Oval Office, you know? If the kind of system would say, well, you know -- the President would say, sure, I'll see him, you know, because he really early on took to the fact that there were new leaders in Africa who were trying to change Africa for the better. These were leaders who believed it was their responsibility; not just blaming somebody else. These were people who were going to fight corruption, not engage in it. These were people who were not going to try to make themselves president for life; they were going to stand for election. And he saw that early on and he liked working with that challenge.
And he put, then -- we have more than tripled development assistance for Africa. The Millennium Challenge Accounts are going, a lot of them, to Africa. The African Growth and Opportunity Act, which we picked up from the Clinton Administration. The HIV/AIDS initiative which -- I know, because I sat in the Oval Office when the President decided to do it was for him a moral cause, because he said, history will judge us badly if all we have done -- all we have, we don't do something about this scourge. Now, the malaria initiatives. The education initiative.
He's just had a strong belief in Africa; an Africa that wasn't just a humanitarian disaster or a crisis to be dealt with but rather an Africa that could really emerge with strong partners. And, you know, I know that some of the proudest things for him -- the Sudan Peace Accord. Now we have the Darfur problem, but hopefully if we can get Darfur right, then Sudan can emerge.
Liberia. You know, Colin Powell and I went to the President and he said, tell me one reason I ought to do Liberia. And we said, because Liberia was freed American slaves. Our connection to Liberia is historic and moral. And people forget Marines actually went and secured the airport and the seaports in Liberia. Charles Taylor got out of the country. And American Marines went and secured those ports.
So this President has a lot to be proud of. I'll tell you sir, when I was at the African Growth and Opportunity Act a couple years ago, at the summit, the Senegalese Prime -- well, Foreign Minister said, we like so much what the President has done for Africa we call him, "Bush, the African". I said that's a tremendous compliment.
QUESTION: Does he get enough credit for what he's done in Africa?
SECRETARY RICE: No, he doesn't.
QUESTION: Hmm.
SECRETARY RICE: From Africans he does.
QUESTION: Oh, the Africans?
SECRETARY RICE: From Africans, yes, but from America, no. But I'm going to -- I really look forward to going back to Africa. I had to cancel a trip this time to deal with problems here, but I will be in Africa again. And I wouldn't be too surprised if the President's not in Africa one more time before he leaves.
QUESTION: Well, we want to come with you, so I'm putting in my --
SECRETARY RICE: All right. (Laughter.)
QUESTION: All right, thanks again.
SECRETARY RICE: Great to see you. Great to see you.
(For release in October issue. Date TBD)
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